Localization (4.4.2.1)

[Erik Naggum]

In reply to Rex Jaeschke's article <54.UUL1.3#5077 at aussie.COM>.
Quotes are from that article.

First, thanks for an elaborate answer, Rex.

> Examples are not part of the standard.

I did overlook that rather important piece of information.  Sorry.
There are several implications from this, some of which you note.

> I shall bring this to his [Derek Jones] attention to see if it can
> be fixed by him.

I appreciate that.

> I have no expertise or interest in this particular area as I'm sure many
> others voting did not either.

The whole locale stuff is botched, in my opinion.  It seems that too
few people did have any real interest in this.  The solution proposed
is very cumbersome, and using it in all its ramifications basically
requires a tutorial or at least a lot of example code.  I haven't
looked very hard, so I would appreciate pointers to such things if
they do exist.

> Also note that it was unlikely anyone working on ANSI C had a vested
> interest in the Norgegian marketplace at that time. ... I am not
> personally aware of any direct input from Norway either at the ANSI
> C or ISO C level re this or any other issue.

Then why was Norway chosen for the example?  Norwegians tend to think
that Norway is terribly important for world affairs in general, but I
(a Norwegian only with respect to the longitude and latitude of my
office and home, a regrettable accident) am not of that opinion.  I do
think, however, that if an example is chosen, it should be correct and
relevant.  This is not the case with one prominently chosen country in
the example.

> If Norway has a standards body why aren't they participating in ISO
> C?

Because I wasn't there at the time.  Seriously, I have contacts inside
the Norwegian Standards Association, and I'm trying to figure out why
we are not represented in ISO/IEC JTC1/SC2 (character set issues), or
why Norway does not have anybody officially working with SGML, or why
some of the special things we have in this country invariably fail to
show up in important international standards.  Norwegians are soi
disant individualists, but "individualist" seems to mean "different
from everybody else" rather than "the way I think is best".  (There is
a big difference.)  (Discussions of that in soc.culture.nordic, pls.)
There are, however, limits to how much I can do.  I like ANSI C, and I
was just recently made aware of the efforts by ISO to adopt it.  I run
a one-man consulting company, and I do have to make a living on top of
all this involvement, too.  (Besides, slowly earning that university
degree is not any less demanding.)  I think it's important and inter-
esting; that's why I do all these things.  Few others seem to think
it's worth it.  Not my fault.  And, I _am_ trying to fix it.  (Please
note that ISO work is unpaid, volunteer effort, and that the funds
available to travel to meetings all over the world has to come from
somewhere.  I'm not going to play altruist and invest my own hard-
earned money in travel budgets for ISO.  My time, however, is avail-
able for whatever I like to do -- that's why I'm self-employed.  Other
people I've talked to about doing something about the regrettable
state of affairs always resort to arguments about "funding", i.e.
getting someone to give them full salary for the time spent, which
means that they are not really interested.  The other problem is that
the number and complexity of the strings attached to "grants" would
choke me.)

> You are assuming locales are trashed just because the example has a
> problem.

Well, no, but it could look like that.  I'm sorry I didn't provide
more background in my first posting.

> The standard does not require any implementor to provide any locales
> beyond "C".  I'm sure that if you provided a Norwegian locale and
> did it `the right way' your customers will thank you for it.

I'm working on it.  Don't hold your breath, though.

> I may be reading into this something that isn't there but it sounds
> like `The damned US is ignoring the rest of the world again.'

It's not in there.  I don't think it could sound like it, either.  And
I'm not going to into apologetic-mode in defense of the U.S., but I
would like to state for the record that I would never say anything
like "the damned U.S.".

> The addition of locales and multibyte primitives delayed the
> standard probably 2 years but we did it anyway.

For which I'm not particularly thankful, but never mind.

If I can get to be an ISO rep without _losing_ money on it, we may
have a chance to meet sometime.  With the hysterical attitudes we have
against people not employed by the Government and under their control
in this country, it might take some time.

Again, thanks for your elaboration.

--
[Erik Naggum]					     <enag at ifi.uio.no>
Naggum Software, Oslo, Norway			   <erik at naggum.uu.no>