3b1 DOS-73 board: Summary of Responses.
Steve Hurrell
steve at sq.uucp
Wed Sep 21 03:50:47 AEST 1988
As I promised here is the summary of information that I
received about the DOS-73 card available for the 3b1. I
appreciate the quality of responses that everyone supplied.
1) Description
The DOS-73 card is a vanilla 286 IBM-PC running MS-DOS 3.1. It uses
a virtual disk that requires that you allocate some disk storage,
partition the disk to have it work. The board is noted to be *slow*.
2) Benefits
-Hercules Graphics *emulation*.
-RS-232 serial port (COM2) on DOS-73 board. (for mouse)
-access to screen, keyboard, disk, HD, modem, parrellel port (LPT1:)
-has slot for a 8087 board for math.
3) Limitations
-no copy-protected software will run.
-No 640K programs will run due to 512K memory, less 32k video.
-programs using high-level graphics or utility routines will not work.
-no slots for PC add-on boards.
-no CGA, EGA, or VGA. (bit-mapped graphics, no CADD ;-().
-no support from AT&T for the product.
4) MS-DOS Software
-PC Paintbrush.
-MS Word
-Intuit IS-2000 (spreadsheet, dbase)
-Samna IV, Enable, Multiplan.
-Lotus 1-2-3? (unprotected?)
-Turbo Pascal
-Sidekick
-Smalltalk/V (no mouse)
_____________________________________________________
Steve Hurrell {utai,utzoo}!sq!steve
SoftQuad Inc. ihnp4!darwin!sq!steve
720 Spadina Ave., Ste. 200 Bus: 1(416)963-8337
Toronto, ON M5S2T9 CANADA Res: 1(416)947-9007
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X
XFrom: darwin!utzoo!att!ihlpm!hartman
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 88 23:42:45 EDT
X
In short, it isn't too bad, but don't expect any miracles.
X
X- It is a bit slow. Since it is basically a vanilla PC running on
a separate board, this is understandable. A fast hard disk does
wonders, however :-)
X
X- It does Hercules graphics emulation (quite nicely). However, this
is the main constraint on what software packages will and will not
run on it. I saw a list at one time, but basically older versions
of most popular packages run fine. For example, I have ran older
versions of Lotus 1-2-3, etc. with no problem (the newer versions
do not run because of graphics incompatability).
X
X- Other programs that do not run correctly are those that directly
access the hardware. Examples of this are many games which contain
low-level graphics routines, and many 'utility' programs which try
to directly access either the floppy or hard disk.
X
X- Most other things run nicely. I use Turbo Pascal on occasion, and
it runs without a hitch. I have also ran Sidekick on it (just to
see if it worked :-)).
X
In case you don't have details on the thing, it comes with 512K of
RAM and a serial port. It does have a slot for an optional 8087, but
this is the only add-on option I know of (memory might be a problem
for many applications). It implements 'virtual disks', which are
actually single files in a UNIX directory on the hard disk.
It can access the floppy disk, as well as the modem and printer (I never
tried the modem, though). Needless to say, it comes with its own version
of MS-DOS (whatever was current about 2 years ago). Due to the unusual
hardware, upgrades to never versions are not possible.
X
Basically, it is more than sufficient for the occasional MSDOS user --
namely me. Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any specific
questions.
X
Mark Hartman
hartman at ihlpm.att.com
att!ihlpm!hartman
X
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X
XFrom: utzoo!utgpu!watmath!clyde!mcdchg!chinet!att!ihlpf!lgm
In-Reply-To: your article <1988Aug31.175340.1225 at sq.uucp>
X
X> 2) What software have you people found that works and doesn't work?
X
Doesn't work:
X1) Almost anything that's copy-protected.
X2) Most programs that expect 512 K of RAM or more. The DOS Board
X has 512 K, but 32 K of that is the video image.
X3) Programs that need bitmapped graphics but aren't compatible
X with Hercules graphics, the only kind that the DOS Board
X emulates.
X4) Almost anything that requires a mouse. Exception: You can
X attach a serial mouse to the RS-232 port on the DOS Board.
X Such a mouse will then work with much software, but still
X not all. I think this is because many mouse drivers
X attempt to autodetect the graphics type.
X5) Some programs that want to autodetect the graphics type and
X do not accept a manual setting. One program of this kind
X claimed I had AT&T 640x400 graphics, which is *not* true.
X (As I said above, the DOS Board emulates Hercules graphics.)
X6) Programs that want to talk to the hard disk, floppy disk, or
X keyboard directly. Both action games and window managers
X often want to read the keyboard directly (so as to be
X more "responsive"), and that doesn't work well on the
X DOS Board.
X7) Programs that look for a system font "in the ROMs." The
X Generic CADD people told me that this is why their program
X won't run on my DOS Board.
X8) Programs that require detailed knowledge of the keyboard.
X For example, some programs need to know whether the shift
X key is pressed (independent of any "real" key); such information
X is not available to the DOS Board, as far as I know.
X
Specific examples of programs that do work:
X1) Smalltalk/V. Mouse doesn't work. Graphics are very slow.
X2) PC Paintbrush. Graphics are a bit slow.
X3) Dr. Halo III. Again, graphics are a bit slow.
X4) Lots of public-domain, character-based programs.
X
X
X Larry Mayka
X AT&T Bell Laboratories
X att!ihlpf!lgm
X
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X
XFrom: utzoo!utgpu!watmath!clyde!mcdchg!chinet!att!ihlpb!res
X
Memory: Somewhat limited. There is 512K on the board, not expandable.
X Also, some of that is not available to your application. You
X have better than 400K available.
X
Speed: Acceptable to me. Not on a par with the 2000000000000MHz
X 386-based boards now on the market, but a good bit better than
X the PCs that came out before it did. Also, I/O is done by the
X UNIX side of the machine and so is buffered. Hence, I/O-bound
X programs do pretty well.
X
Usage: I have both the UNIX/PC here at work, and an MS-DOS compatible
X at home. Both present the same sort of behavior, and many
X programs I have running on one run quite well on the other,
X with the exception of graphics programs.
X
X> 2) What software have you people found that works and doesn't work?
X
There are two categories of program that do not run on the UNIX/PC.
X
a) Need more than ~400K of memory.
X As an example, the Harvard Total Project Manager (HTPM) runs
X nicely on the DOS-73 board. The next version of HTPM (HTPM II)
X needs more memory and quits during program startup.
X
b) Uses bit-level graphic output.
X As long as character graphics (so called "business graphics")
X are used all is well, but I have yet to find a program that
X uses bit graphics successfully on this machine. The board is
X supposed to emulate a Hercules Monochrome controller. However,
X the number of pixels on the screen is different from an IBM PC.
X This is partially corrected in that the display can be scrolled
X up and down to see the part that falls off the bottom of the
X screen, but the different number of pixels horizontally results
X in a display that looks like it lost horizontal sync -- torn,
X with successive rows skewed.
X
X Rich Strebendt
X ...!att!ihlpb!res
X
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X
XFrom: utzoo!linus!cca!harvard!wjh12!gnosys!gst
X
Steve,
X
I'm using the thing, but only because it was loaned to me. I don't think
I'd buy one, given that you can probably get a decent clone for a comparable
price. The only real advantage I see is that it gives me one machine sitting
on my desk instead of two, and a fairly easy way to transfer files between
UNIX and DOS. The emulation is not complete. Just today I finally discovered
how to use the serial port on the DOS-73 board (it's COM2, not COM1), and how
to talk to my new printer, which is plugged into the UNIX-pc's parallel port
X(the DOS device is called "LPT1:", not "PRN:".
X
Anyway, here's some old net traffic on the subject which I had lying around.
I hope it helps.
X
X Gary
X
Path: husc6!bloom-beacon!think!ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!ihnp4!homxb!whuts!mtune!quincy!lenny
X>From: lenny at quincy.UUCP (Lenny Tropiano)
X
Here are some of the mailed responses I got in reference to the
DOS-73 Coprocessor. There might be more followups if I get more mail!
I still don't have specifics on getting it for $300! But will keep
you posted :-).
X
X -Lenny
X
X---------------------------------------------------------
X>From: ...ihnp4!ihlpf!spear
X
It is a quite slow board - definitely won't handle 9600 baud terminal
i/o. Screen update also seems slow and is limited to Hercules
graphics. But it pretty much works if you can tolerate the speed and
don't need CGA.
X
Steve Spearman
X
X---------------------------------------------------------
X>From: ...mtune!ihwpt!lgm
X
Lenny,
X
I saw your question on Usenet concerning the DOS-73
Board for the UNIX PC. I myself have a DOS-73 Board
on my UNIX PC 3B1. On the whole I am very satisfied
with the board and its interface to the UNIX Operating
System side of the machine. With the board I have
access to all the public-domain and commercial software
written for MS-DOS, and I don't have to buy a second
set of peripherals (monitor, modem, printer, floppy
disk, hard disk, etc.) as I would if I had bought
a stand-alone PC clone.
X
In answer to your specific questions:
X
X1) I do not know whether the DOS Board "bogs down" the
bus when doing I/O. (I presume you are referring to
disk accesses.) To tell you the truth, I do not even
know whether the DOS Board accesses the hard disk
directly or passes requests to the hard disk driver
on the UNIX-OS side. I myself do not usually have heavy
jobs running on the UNIX-OS side at the same time as
an MS-DOS session. But I have never noticed any
slowness due to disk access. After all, a hard disk
is far faster than a floppy, and most MS-DOS programs
are written so as to run tolerably even directly
off floppies. In the case of my own 3B1 Computer,
the hard disk has an average access time of 28 msec -
two or three times as fast as a typical XT-class
hard disk drive.
X
X2) The DOS Board is not, however, a perfect clone
of the IBM PC. Some incompatibilities I have run into
are:
X
X a) The most obvious - no PC-compatible bus
X slots. Peripheral boards designed for the
X IBM PC cannot be used on the UNIX PC,
X DOS Board or no.
X
X b) Only Hercules graphics are supported -
X no CGA, EGA, or VGA. Hercules is rather
X popular in business and scientific circles -
X it is still about the highest-resolution
X graphics available. But only in monochrome!
X Most commercial graphics software supports
X Hercules, but almost no public-domain
X graphics software does.
X
X Naturally, character-based software (including
X pseudo-graphics based on the IBM Extended
X Character Set) runs fine on the DOS-73 Board.
X
X One other important point: The Hercules
X graphics on the DOS Board is only an
X *emulation.* This has two consequences.
X First, it's rather slow. (I think it's
X usable, but some people would say it isn't.)
X Second, public-domain programs that
X purport to enable CGA graphics to run on
X Hercules boards don't seem to work -
X an emulation on top of an emulation is
X apparently more than the DOS Board can handle.
X
X c) The UNIX PC mouse is supposedly able to
X work with some MS-DOS programs, but I
X have not succeeded in doing this. Instead,
X I have attached a Logitech mouse to the
X RS-232 port that comes on the DOS Board
X itself. The Logitech mouse is then as
X usable as on a regular PC. In particular,
X I have used it with PC Paintbrush.
X
X d) The DOS Board does not have the same direct
X access to the keyboard as on a PC. Thus,
X certain unusual key combinations such as
X Shift-PageUp cannot be generated, and certain
X holding actions such as "hold NumberLock down
X while using cursor keys" are not reproducible
X or are not read by the program properly.
X Luckily, the one program I have for which
X this problem is the most serious, provides
X its own solution: Intuit IS-2000, an
X integrated word processor, spreadsheet, and
X data base manager, uses some unusual key
X combinations but it comes with a program
X to customize the keyboard driver for a
X particular machine's keyboard. Thus, I
X was able to redefine Shift-PageUp to be
X Alt-PageUp, which the DOS Board can generate.
X
X e) The DOS Board does not come with BASIC.
X I presume one can load a RAM-based BASIC
X like GW-BASIC; but programs that require
X a ROM-based BASIC like IBM's BASICA will
X not run.
X
X f) Some low-level operations are forbidden
X or at least discouraged. For example,
X the MS-DOS shipped with my DOS Board did
X not include a FORMAT command. I do not
X know whether the DOS Board is incapable
X of formatting a floppy (I don't know
X why this would be true; in other cases
X it can access the floppy disk drive just
X as a PC would) or whether AT&T simply
X didn't want to give me two ways of doing
X the same thing. (The UNIX Operating System
X Software already includes a menu selection
X for giving a floppy MS-DOS format.)
X
X g) In connection with the preceding point:
X I do not know whether I can install a
X later release of MS-DOS (3.2 or higher)
X on the DOS Board. It comes with MS-DOS 3.1.
X
One thing to point out is that AT&T does not guarantee
compatibility - in fact, the AT&T Hotline will not
give support for MS-DOS software on the DOS-73 Board.
X
X3) I bought my DOS-73 Board during an employees-only
sale. Thus, I do not know where to get the best
price on the board, or what that best price would be.
X
Hope this information helps you make a decision.
X
X
X Larry Mayka
X AT&T Bell Laboratories
X (312) 979-2766
X ihnp4!ihwpt!lgm
X
X---------------------------------------------------------
X>From: ...gatech!gt-eedsp!emory!kim
Organization: Math & Computer Science, Emory University, Atlanta
X
I have had a DOS-73 board for a little over a year. Initially I had
a lot of trouble with it and it didn't seem to work very well. It
turned out that I had a faulty motherboard (on my 3B1) and when that
was replaced it worked fine. It doesn't seem to load down the 3B1, but
if the 3B1 is loaded the screen in the DOS-73 board is slow. The only
really serious drawback is that the 3B1 screen is different than a PC
screen so that some programs require you to scroll up and down to display
the whole screen (there are function buttons to do this). The other
annoyance is that I have never succeeded in getting the 3B1's mouse
to work. I use this board primarily to run MS-WORD and have been
very pleased with it.
X
Please tell me if you find someplace that sells it for $300. Our
local Avnet sells it for $750 (I think I paid $1250 for mine). I'm in the
market for another board for my second 3B1 (cheaper than a service contract).
X
Good luck
X
Kim Wallen
Psychology Department
XEmory University
Atlanta, GA 30322
X
UUCP: {akgua gatech decvax}!emory!kim
BITNET: kim at emoryu1
X
X---------------------------------------------------------
X>From: ...cbosgd!cblpf!dtm
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories - Columbus, Ohio
X
X I think even the retailers are selling the DOS-73 board for around
X$300, but then I bought mine secondhand for about $275. As for the
compatibility so far I have mainly used it for turbo prolog, and it seems to
be quite ok. However it seems that it does to some extent slow down the I/O
when doing graphic output to the screen. good luck..
X
X - D. Miruke
X cbosgd!cblpf!dtm
X
X
X---------------------------------------------------------
X>From: ...ihnp4!think!harvard!wjh12!gst
X
Hello again. I just came across your posting about the PC coprocessor and
wanted to ask you to either post a summary of whatever private responses
you might get or let me know what you find out. I was quoted a price
close to the second one you mentioned, and would, like yourself, like to
be able to get it for a lower price. In fact, that's the only way it would
seem worthwhile to me. I can't really say anything about compatibility,
as I've never used one, so again, I'd like to know whatever you learn.
X
Thanks much in advance.
X
X Gary Trujillo
X (harvard!wjh12!gst)
X
X--
Lenny Tropiano ...seismo!uunet!swlabs!godfre!quincy!lenny -or-
American LP Systems, Inc. ...cmcl2!phri!gor!helm!quincy!lenny -or-
X1777-18 Veterans Memorial Hwy. ...mtune!quincy!lenny -or
Islandia, New York 11722 +1 516-582-5525 ...ihnp4!icus!quincy!lenny
X
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X
XFrom: darwin!utzoo!att!ihnp4!ulysses!dave
X
Steve,
X
Since I'm still not completely up to speed on Netnews I'll respond to
your questions via Email. We've been using the DOS-73 boards for
quite sometime now and feel they are cheap enough and are well worth it.
X
X
X>1) Just how good is the DOS emulation? Are there any constraints
X> in the areas of memory, speed, usage.
X
The DOS emulation is relatively good except for the following:
X
X The DOS-73 board comes with 512K of built-in memory. This may
X not be sufficient for all applications.
X
X Some heavy graphics-intensive programs do not work too well
X (for obvious reasons).
X
X Packages with floppy-based copy protection schemes will not
X load properly. (See below).
X
X You have to manage your DOS-73 process. In other words, you
X have to allocate some disk storage, partition the disk,
X and remember where your stuff is. The documentation helps
X you get through that pretty well.
X
STEVE
The DOS-73 process is slow, but there are advantages to having it
on the Unix PC. You can define your Filecabinet to be one of the
DOS-73 partitions and therefore move Unix and DOS files back and forth
easily. You can use the floppy drive to manage your DOS disks.
Last but not least, you have a DOS machine for a mere $150-200.
X
X>2) What software have you people found that works and doesn't work?
X
We've put up things like Samna IV, Enable, Multiplan, etc.
I believe that Lotus 123 will not load properly unless it's been
unprotected. Other people may have more experience in this area.
X
Let me know how you make out with other DOS-73 users.
If you have any more questions, you can reach me on (201) 560-6750.
X
X-Dave Pollak
X(att!dxppc!dave)
X
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