Sparcstation SLC (Sun 4/20)

[Mark Purtill]

A while back I asked a few questions about the Sparc SLC, and promised a
summary if there was interest.  Two people asked for the summary, so I
claim there is interest, so here it is, along with selected answers from
various people.  Thanks to everyone who responded.

^me> 1. Can the SLC be used as a standalone machine or does it need
^me> something else as a disk server?  (If the answer to this is that it
^me> can't stand alone, the remaining questions are moot).  I realize it
^me> comes diskless, but I'm assuming that disks can be added to the SCSI
^me> port. 

Summary: Yes, the SLC can be used standalone if a disk is added.

From: khb at Eng.Sun.COM (Keith Bierman - SPD Advanced Languages)
| Yes. And if you order a SCSI disk at the same time as the SLC the disk
| comes preformatted and loaded with SunOS 4.1<?> I am told.

From: John.Chadwick at West.Sun.COM (John Chadwick - Sun San Francisco SE)
| It can be standalone if equipped with disk, just like an SS1.  Disks, tapes
| CD-ROM and Exabyte can be added to the SCSI port.

From: Steve Simmons <scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us>
| Yes, I have seen it running as such.

^me> 2. Will Sun sell one to an ordinary mortal?  If not, are there Sun
^me> dealers out there who would?

Summary: Yes and yes.  

From: John.Chadwick at West.Sun.COM (John Chadwick - Sun San Francisco SE)
| Yes, anyone with money (:->.  If your local sales office is underwhelmed 
| with the idea, they will refer you to a local dealer.  I work in the San 
| Francisco sales office and people call up daily asking to buy one or two 
| systems.  We are very happy for the business.  The only exception is when 
| a person wants us to do massive benchmarking or similar exercises for 
| minimal revenue.

From: roberto at bondi.phyast.pitt.edu (Roberto Gomez)
| Let your fingers do the walking...  Call 1-800-USA-4-SUN and follow
| directions, or check with your local dealer.  You'll probably end up
| paying list price, though.  But I'm just guessing.

From: Mike Liveright @ VERITY <mliverig at verity.com>
| I think that sun will sell to anyone. You may need to supply the
| money up front so that they dont have to bother about credit.
| I strongly suggest that you try to convince them that you are 
| developing code and "qualify" for a catalist discount. It may take longer 
| than you want, but it is QUITE VALUABLE.

From: pjg at acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham)
| Yes, but you might have some problem.  Eakins and ERI both sell Suns.

^me> 3. Does it come with SunOS?  If so, how is it supplied?  How are new
^me> versions of the updgrade handled?  If there's anyone out there who
^me> uses a stand-alone Sun of any type, do you get useful support from
^me> Sun, or do they only care about large-network customers?

Summary: The SLC comes with a license to use SunOS, but not media or docs.
   Updates and support are available if you pay for them.

From: Larry.Wake at West.Sun.COM (Larry Wake - SE Sun SFValley - 818-905-0200)
| The usual ways -- if you buy it w/the 104 Meg "lunchbox" drive, it
| comes with SunOS 4.1 preloaded.  If not, you can buy the OS
| distribution on 1/4" tape, 1/2" tape, floppy, or CD-ROM.  In fact, you
| should do this even if you *do* buy the disk.  Support is one thing
| that is rather expensive for "mortals," alas, but if you can afford it,
| you should definitely go on software maintenance.  This gets you phone
| support via the 800 line, and upgrades to the OS as they become
| available.  The 800 line doesn't really know whether you own 1 SLC or
| 200 490's; you'll get the same service as any customer at the support
| level you contract for (JPL, for example, pays to have a software and
| hardware engineer onsite full time, so yes, they'll get slightly better
| service; but if you contract and pay the same as they do, you can have
| that at *your* house, too :-).

From: John.Chadwick at West.Sun.COM (John Chadwick - Sun San Francisco SE)
| It comes with a two-user right-to-use license for SunOS, and a small starter
| documentation set (Owner's Set).  A copy of the media is $350, and a full 
| set of documents (with binders) is $600.

From: Steve Simmons <scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us>
| Surely you jest.  Almost no-one gets useful support from Sun.

From: Mike Liveright @ VERITY <mliverig at verity.com>
| We have a small shop, 10 or so, but I have never have the impression that
| SUN knows/cares as to our size...  I like their suport, and recently they
| have the people to respond in a resonably timely manner...

From: pbg at cs.brown.edu (Peter Galvin)
| I don't think so.  You have to buy a separate software maintenance
| contract, but they are cheap at this point (unless you want manuals).

From: steve at umiacs.UMD.EDU (Steve D. Miller)
| I don't know whether the 104MB Desktop Storage Modules come preloaded
| with SunOS.  If not, and probably even if it does (since the preloaded
| system is pretty basic), you'll need a distribution tape or CD.  I've
| heard some real horror stories with some individuals who've bought Suns
| and then tried to buy software having trouble (like a year's worth of
| trouble!) getting Sun to ship to them.  That could be a purely local
| problem.

^me> 4. Someone mentioned a CD-ROM drive available, along with a CD-ROM
^me> containing SunOS.  Can this be mounted as a file system, and if so
^me> would that save disk space?

Summary: It can be mounted, but it's not clear whether you can use it (the
  SunOS CD-Rom) as a /usr disk or not (some say yes, some say no).

From: John.Chadwick at West.Sun.COM (John Chadwick - Sun San Francisco SE)
| Yes it can be mounted, and it's a good way to save disk space if the data
| you want is available on CD-ROM.  We're hoping to have SunOS on CD-ROM 
| "real soon", as they say in Marketing departments.

From: ekrell at ulysses.att.com
| No, this is a SunOS distribution CD for installing SunOS on your hard
| disk. It's intended to replace the cartridge, 9-track and floppies media
| Sun has been shipping SunOS on.

From: Mike Liveright @ VERITY <mliverig at verity.com>
| I have asked and the CD-ROM is probably not a system disk. Thus you 
| probably have to copy from it. I am not sure about that, but I realy doubt 
| if you can run UNIX from a read only media... 

From: pbg at cs.brown.edu (Peter Galvin)
| Yes, and yes, but it would be slow compared to the local disk.
| That's actually an interesting thought...get a CDROM for $999 and a
| 100MB disk and you have a pretty nice package.  I'll have to look into
| it!

From: pjg at acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham)
| Yes, it can be mounted.  I believe that you could mount /usr read-only
| from the CD but maybe not. It would be rather slow.

From: steve at umiacs.UMD.EDU (Steve D. Miller)
| Sun sells a CDROM for $995 list, and it works with the SLC.  If you buy
| before sometime in August, they throw in a 4.1 distribution CD.  It is a
| filesystem -- albeit a High Sierra filesystem --, but while you can mount
| it, and you can even boot it, you can't run off it (i.e., use it as /usr)
| indefinitely.

^me> 5. What's available in the way of cheap backup devices, e.g., tape
^me> drives or even floppies?

Summary: Forget floppies. Tape drives are available.  They can be cheap or
  not.

From: John.Chadwick at West.Sun.COM (John Chadwick - Sun San Francisco SE)
| Well, floppies would take just about forever, but the 150-Mb cartridge 
| tape (or third-party equivalent) is what most people use.  It's fairly
| inexpensive and reliable, if cleaned occasionally.

From: ekrell at ulysses.att.com
| Sun sells a desktop 150MB quarter inch tape drive. You can get the same
| drive from third parties for less $$.

From: Steve Simmons <scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us>
| You have to beat the bushes.  A friend bought a batch of used QIC-625 (?)
| (approx 500MB) drives for $350 each and sold me one (sorry, they're gone).
| They have an imbedded SCSI controller.  Try the back pages of PC Week,
| especially the used/refurb equipment brokers.  This is also a good place
| to get cheap disk -- last week there were ~300MB maxtors for $600.

From: pbg at cs.brown.edu (Peter Galvin)
| I don't know of external floppy drives, but streaming tapes are
| possible.  Call any of the 3rd party hardware places listed in
| something like Unix Today! or Sun Observer (or let me know and I'll
| give you the phone numbers).

From: pjg at acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham)
| Either, but not from Sun.

^me> 6. How much do the SIMMs that it takes go for?  I gather these are 4
^me> megabytes with parity.

Summary: The SIMMs used are funny and currently only available from Sun,
  where they list at $1450/4Megs.  Apparently you can get them for
  substantial discounts, tho.

From: John.Chadwick at West.Sun.COM (John Chadwick - Sun San Francisco SE)
| I'm only aware of Sun pricing, which is $1450 for 4Mb of 4Mb SIMMs.  
| The system comes standard with 8Mb, which is enough for many people.

From: ekrell at ulysses.att.com
| We can get them for about $550 (discounted).

From: roberto at bondi.phyast.pitt.edu (Roberto Gomez)
| About $1,450 for 4 Mbytes. The local sales critter claims that existing
| third party memory won't work, because of the little boards they used to
| cram the 4 Mbyte SIMMS in a small space, hence you'd be stuck on buying
| from SUN, for now.

From: pjg at acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham)
| I don't know (but I should). The simms are 1x36 (includes parity) and
| currently are only available from Sun.

From: steve at umiacs.UMD.EDU (Steve D. Miller)
| I don't remember what the SIMMs go for, but they're nonstandard SIMMs from
| what we heard at our meeting.  I don't think they're yet available from
| third-party folks, though I doubt they'll take long to reverse-engineer...

Other comments:

From: Mike Liveright @ VERITY <mliverig at verity.com>
| p.s. I think that many of the questions can be answered by phoning SUN 
| directly. It will also give you a chance to see if you feel that
| they will treat you as a person...

Someone else:
| You might be able to qualify for a developer program... if you cobble
| up a suitable story (something about building a sw product). If so,
| you can get a good deal on a whole hw/sw package from Sun. Of course,
| I never said any of this (so remove my name before reposting!).

Thanks again to all who responded.  I hope none of you feel slighted by
what I chose not to quote from your articles!

^me> Mark Purtill
^me> ^.-.^ purtill at math.mit.edu (if that fails, try: purtill at athena.mit.edu)
^me> ((")) \@_: Dept. of Math., MIT 2-229, Cambridge, MA 02139; (617)623-6238